1 Timothy 2:8 (NIV 1984), If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If I have time, I may take a closer look at the HCSB. The things I’ve heard said about it… A study of the short history of this translation might be worth the effort. “Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness” Romans 12:6-8 ESV (Italics added). Baptist writer William P. Grady, in a chapter titled the “Synagogue of Satan,” writes, “The average Christ-ian is unaware that the manuscripts from which the modern ‘Bibles’ have been translated are Egyptian in origin; more specifically, Alexandrian. Bible translators have to make numerous decisions about words and phrases, and some of these decisions are influenced by theology and agendas. … being born in human likeness. There is no English translation that is perfect, but I really like the CSB. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. The NRSV much less so. Canon 11 of the Council of Laodicea. I've heard a lot of discussion saying that both the NASB and the NRSV are good Bibles for "academic" readers. He was deeply committed to the ways of the Lord. Press J to jump to the feed. Three Scholars with Two Views on Eve’s Role as Helper, Deuteronomy 22:28-29 and Marrying your Rapist, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/10/01/the-politics-of-bible-translations/, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%A4%CE%91%20%CE%9C%CE%91%CE%A4%CE%98%CE%91%CE%99%CE%9F%CE%9D+1&version=SBLGNT, http://www.nestle-aland.com/en/read-na28-online/, https://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2019/august/prison-ministry-inspired-all-female-audio-bible.html, https://www.navigators.org/resource/inductive-bible-study/, https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/tips/the-inductive-method-of-bible-study-the-basics-11628183.html, https://www.bethel.edu/academics/faculty/strauss-mark, https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/a-review-of-the-christian-standard-bible/, https://margmowczko.com/biblical-manhood-masculinity-esv/, Mary and the Women in Matthew’s Genealogy of Jesus, Don Carson and Tim Keller on “I Do Not Permit a Woman to Teach”. But for clarity, I prefer the NASB, NIV… 2 Corinthians 5:12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. Here’s how the most recent edition of the NLT renders the verses, or pertinent phrases in the verses, mentioned above. It has also used the NIV and NRSV, in the past, but I do not like the last one. 2 Corinthians 5:12 We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, 2 Thessalonians 1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you. The Greek verb used here means “to learn” and it is not passive. No worries. It’s gender-neutral. The translation of Romans 12:6-8 in the NASB 2020 is unmarked by gendered words. How someone approaches reading and thinking about the text largely determines if a study is inductive or not. I’m sure there are books, etc, written about pronouns in Bible translations, but I haven’t come across them. (I discuss if Andronicus and Junia were among the apostles, or not, here. Problems occur when we single out verses, and words, and remove them from their context. God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. I am 60 now. The NIV has been very successful … Jeremiah 13:15 clearly states “Be not proud…” And other verses state how God opposes those who are prideful. Nevertheless, I suspect women, as well as men, functioned as elders and bishops in a few New Testament congregations. If anything, the NIV and NASB make it clearer if it’s a good “pride” (KJV: “glory”) or a bad “pride” (NASB, NIV, etc: “insolence/arrogance/haughtiness”). It could be argued that these masculine words might be translated as “every man who is believing.” Thankfully, however, all English translations have translated John 3:16 inclusively. Some recent translations are more gender-inclusive than others. Hi Marg, So God says that he hates pride but yet he is going to make Jerusalem the EVERLASTING PRIDE. What better way to deceive people and to keep them from seeing the pride in their lives, than to confuse the meaning of the word. Scot McKnight has an interesting blog post about the politics of Bible translations: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/10/01/the-politics-of-bible-translations/. In some printings of the Aleppo Codex and the Westminster Leningrad Codex, as well as a Hebrew word meaning “not” there is also another Hebrew word given in round brackets: (לוֹ) (“its/his”). For pride is much deeper than arrogance or haughtiness, and far more consuming. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. How does that help anything? The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) is an English translation of the Bible published in 1989 by the National Council of Churches.It is a revision of the Revised Standard Version, which was itself an update of the American Standard Version. Thanks! The NASB 1995 and KJV (which are older translations) use the word “man/men” twice each. In the NASB it states…A man’s pride will bring him low… Proverbs 29:23 and Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling. Both the ESV and the NASB … 2 Corinthians 1:12 For our proud confidence is this…. ), For the sake of comparison with other translations of 1 Timothy 2:3b-5 above, here’s how the NASB 2020 translates this verse: Proverbs 16:18 And yet in 2 Chronicles 17:6 it states, He (Jehoshaphat) took great pride in the ways of the Lord…Did Jehoshaphat take great pride in the ways of the Lord? For instance, John 3:16 in the Greek contains three grammatically masculine words for “everyone who is believing”: πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων. I’m glad about the way the NET translates Isaiah 3:12, but that made me even more surprised. 1 Timothy 2:4-5 and Romans 12:6-8 contain non-gendered words (like the NRSV and CEB), but it uses “men” and “man” in Philippians 2:7-8. Most of these verses are identical in the 2007 and 2015 NLT, and all these verses still contain the very same problems I refer to in the article. So nice to have all the basic Greek and Hebrew resources in my pocket! Strong’s concordance does help; however, Strong’s dictionary is not the best. Or is it better to just try to learn Greek and get a Greek Bible? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. As long as people are reading scriptures in context, there is no problem. I’ve had a few full days and have only been able to check these verses today. Great choice. As I said, interpretation can be subjective. Most of the verses I’ve quoted contain no personal pronouns in the Greek. Similarly, French printer and scholar Robert Estienne added verse numbers in the 16th century. I’m still left wondering what the original Greek is of the verses regarding the gender-inclusive or gender-neutral pronouns? Yes, a lot of my egalitarian friends have raised an eyebrow over my use of the CSB because it was produced by the Southern Baptists. NRSV is more readable, in my opinion. or there being 30,000 chariots in 1 Samuel 13:5 (KJB, NKJV, RV, ASV, NASB, RSV, NRSV, ESV, Douay-Rheims) or only 3000 (NIV, NET, Holman, Catholic New Jerusalem) Look at the new "revision" of the ESV 2011. The first century churches were not perfect! Would you like to support my ministry of encouraging mutuality and equality between men and women in the church and in marriage? Your dissertation topic is very interesting. God does not contradict himself but the NIV does. So glad I found your blog; I am in heaven!! The Passion Translation: A Review of the Treatment of Hebrews by Philip Church is here. . Thank You. I think it also conveys into English the meaning of common idioms better than other translations. I have an NIV Study Bible as well, it's a Zondervan Stuby Bible, I believe. Romans 12:6-8 is a useful passage to gauge how translations deal with inclusive language. … taking on the likeness of humanity. But even verses that contain masculine pronouns can be gender-inclusive depending on certain factors. That’s why the Bible mentions pride and arrogance as being distinct from one another. Thank you again for the very thorough analysis you have done on the merits of the various translations. I have a copy of the NRSV (New Revised Standard Version Reference Bible) that I purchased to read 1 John 5:7-8 and Acts 9, 22, and 26 and compare it to my KJV. For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. Along the way, you can learn about the philosophies behind different translations in general, not just the ESV and the NIV 2011. (1 John 3.17) Marg has a BTh from the Australian College of Ministries and an MA with a specialisation in early Christian and Jewish studies from Macquarie University. a gender hierarchy). The person writing is evidently knowledgeable, but anonymous. My curious mind is asking me which Bible version is the "best." If you have the time, talent and desire, learning Greek and/or Hebrew is the way to go. They updated their copyright in 2015, but I can’t see significant differences in their translation. Most of the criticism of the NIV 2011 concerning gender-inclusive language was utterly unfounded. The cinematic NIV Live (around $15) uses its 79 CDs to take listeners from Genesis through to Revelation with the help of accomplished actors, singers, and experienced pastors and members of the clergy who have combined their talents to breathe new life into God's … Do Paul’s statements mean that it’s okay to boast or to glory in a situation? One difference is that the word “elder” has been changed to “church leader” in 1 Tim 3:2, but they have retained “must be a man”, a phrase which does not occur in the Greek texts. 2:8) or clearly refer to women (e.g., 1 Tim. The biblical authors lived in societies with cultures and customs we are unfamiliar with and they wrote in ancient, now dead, languages. “Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.” Isa 9:3, ISV And here’s Philippians 2:7b-8: I have an article on the gender of God that has a short bibliography of the sources I used, here. Can you help explain Isa.9:3? Marg Mowczko lives north of Sydney, Australia, in a house filled with three generations of family. in a lot of places regarding gender equality and particularly the way they translate Rom 4:5,’But to one who without works trusts Him who justifies the ungodly,such faith is reckoned as righteousness’. For example, some translations go too far and translate passages that clearly refer to men (e.g., 1 Tim. The CSB accurately translates the singular Greek verb with”she will be saved.”, ~ As in the previous edition, the translators have used the words “man” and “office” in 1 Timothy 3:1: “if any man aspires to the office of overseer …” But there is no Greek word that means “man” in this verse, and being an overseer in Ephesus may not have been considered a church office until later. VERSE COMPARISON CHART. If I'm doing work with paper bibles, I use KJV + Strong's if only because I've inherited these books. The purpose of this translation is to be more literal than the New International Version (NIV) – particularly the recent “gender neutral” edition – and to be more readable than the updated New American Standard Bible (NASB). I’ve just had a quick look at the HCSB. And this may indeed involve some kind of pride (or “glory” as the KJV puts it). Bible Word Study Resources. But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty. [Update: The NASB 2020 uses gender-neutral language in Romans 12:6-8. But the Gospel story is not a tragedy. The NIV 2011 isn’t a bad translation, and I do refer to it, but it’s not one of my favourites. Handled comprehensively and critically. But this can be difficult to do. I would prefer, however, that it use Yawheh or Yehovah in every instance the Name occurs. All translation work requires interpretation. What are the pros and cons of each? That's what does it for me as a study Bible. “You have increased the nation; you have increased its joy; they rejoice in your presence as they rejoice at the harvest, as they are glad when they’re dividing the spoils of war.”  Isa 9:3, Only the KJV maintains “have not increased the joy,”, All other translations I checked said, “You have increased the joy.”. What amazes me is that the ESV is closer to the NRSV than the TNIV is to the NIV! And for that, I am grateful. For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the man Christ Jesus … (CSB, italics and underlines added). … being made in human likeness. Also, the second “she” is incorrect in 1 Timothy 2:15. Required fields are marked *. As for the Christian Standard Bible (CSB), it is an accurate translation and beautifully written. 3:28). Our church uses the ESV mostly now. the passages apply to men and to women). Parallel with 5 versions including those on this site. It seems that most English Bible translators were guided by context in determining how to translate the pertinent phrase. I have Not read too many specifics on issues with the NIV translation. Great thread…!!! And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. It’s important to look at what Paul is boasting about, or, “taking pride” in. Sample verse: 'But if someone who is supposed to be a Christian has money enough to live well, and sees a brother in need, and won’t help him – how can God’s love be within him?' 24 (This was before John was put in prison. /r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. This translation choice is not based on the Greek text.[1]. Also I have been told the CSB uses a lot more male pronouns unnecessarily than the NIV and thus it is far less gender neutral? 1 Timothy 2:3b-5 (NIV 1984, underlines added). 16:1 CSB; 2 Tim. They do have many helpful notes that I like, but I noticed that a lot of their notes on certain verses have adamantly complementarian interpretations. It’s difficult to see how any baby can be born in the likeness of men. You have increased its joy”; with the translation from the Septuagint: “The multitude of people who you have led down in your joy . Yes, translations do vary and bias is an art form, but the physical form in which we are confronted by God’s word makes a difference as well. Being found in appearance as a man … NASB 1995 cf. Thanks for this analysis, Marg. I love its style and its accuracy except for verses about women ministers. They CONTRADICT what the word of God tells us specifically not to do. I still look up the NET notes sometimes as they are mostly helpful. 1 Timothy 2:3b-5 is another passage that I believe has been poorly translated in some Bibles. The CSB translation of this phrase is more correct with their word “anyone”: “If anyone aspires to be an overseer …” (I’ve written about 1 Timothy 3:1 and “man” here. I don't have a Bible with the apocrypha yet, all I have are RSV, KJV, NIV, NKJV (New Testament), and The Message versions. It was expected that readers would somehow know which verses were about, or applied to, men and women, and which verses were about, or applied to, only men. Have respect but do not have pride. Also, many consider the NRSV to not be as free-flowing and natural-sounding English as it could be since it takes a few “liberties” in translating some words. .”. Posted by Marg | Oct 1, 2016 | Bible Translation and Interpretation | 63. In a good number of cases, the CSB reversed innovations made by the HCSB and returned to traditional language. See here. (E.g., "son of man" is an idiom that usually just means "human" or "mortal". Thank you dear, very informative . Its major flaw is its loose handling of “gender-inclusive” language. Time is a factor. Intended for female inmates who had suffered abuse by men, the New Testament version has been well received by men as well… no surprise here… Work continues on the Old Testament. I’ve been using it for quotations where this bias doesn’t appear. While Jesus came to earth as a male human being, it is the fact that he became human that makes him the saviour of humanity. Romans 12:6-8 contains no masculine personal pronouns in the Greek and no word for “man,” yet the NIV 1984 contains 8 masculine personal pronouns and adds the word “man.”  Conversely, the NIV 2011, NRSV, CSB and CEB contain zero masculine pronouns and no word for “man.”, While there are no pronouns in Romans 12:6-8, there are five masculine articles in the Greek which are translated as “he” in the NASB 1995;[1] this is not an inaccurate translation, but the NASB then also adds a few more masculine pronouns. . It’s only later that women were discouraged, and then officially banned, from such roles. The language of the NRSV is also a strength because it makes it more readable than the NASB, and even the ESV. Let them listen quietly. It’s the same for James (James 1:9; 4:16). Subsequent study of these documents has immensely improved our knowledge of Koine. I prefer NASB or ESV. Thanks for the time you have taken to look through so thoroughly. Interlinear + whatever your favourite translation is (just for the sake of making sense of grammar)+ a koine glossary. An evaluation of passages in the NET Bible that affect the status and ministry of women by Laura Hunt is here. 7 Places where Gender-Inclusive Bible Translation Really Matters: Part One and Part Two, by Jeffrey D. Miller. I use douay-rheims + Luther Bibel + NASB + electronic interlinear versions when I need to do serious "work". Thus, the NASB and the NIV are not really translations at all, because they have proven themselves to be incorrect. I cannot go into it here, except to say that arrogance and haughtiness are not synonyms of pride. The NASB can be a little clunky to read because of the way it was translated. Paul, on the other hand, thinks it’s okay to boast in God and boast in troubles, etc. The CSB is more accurate: “A woman is to learn quietly …” as is the NET Bible: “A woman must learn quietly …”, ~ In 1 Timothy 2:15, “But women will be preserved” is unchanged from the previous edition, except that “women” was previously italicised to indicate the word was an addition. Then THEY CAN TAKE PRIDE IN THEMSELVES alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, James 1:9 Believers in humble circumstances OUGHT TO TAKE PRIDE in their high position, All these verses about being proud and taking pride and yet in Romans 12:16 it states, Live in harmony with one another. To understand the grammar and all the nuances that need to be considered when translating Greek into English, including the grammar concerning personal pronouns, cannot possibly be explained in a blog post. .”. I plan … To be fair, spirit is literally the word breath or wind. It was expected that readers would somehow know which verses were about, or applied to, men and women, and which verses were about, or applied only to, men. For these and other reasons, such as no inclusive singular third-person pronoun in English, it is impossible to produce a perfectly gender-accurate and gender-inclusive translation. I have a few quibbles over other decisions. As mentioned above, the NASB and the NIV contradict themselves and are in error and therefore are not the WORD of God. And when he had come as a man … CSB 2:2 CSB; Jas 3:1 CSB). No one is being deceived here. What’s Wrong with the Passion ‘Translation’? It is not italicised in the 2020 edition I saw. [2] The style of the CEB, however, makes it much, much, easier to read than the NRSV. I love the Common English Bible (CEB) Study Bible. Again, “rejoice” or “joy” is not an adequate translation. The only positive change that I can see is that the incorrect word “elder” has been replaced with a more correct word “church leader” in 1 Timothy 3:1. I have Always gone back and forth between using the NRSV and the NIV. Marg et al… On the Yahweh–YHWH practice, might I call attention to the work of Mark L. Straus in “A Review of the Christian Standard Bible.” This is an extensive work and good reading for all. From what I understand, the TNIV is no longer being published, so I didn’t include it in my short investigation. Many of the translation decisions are refreshing in that the translators haven’t been bowed to traditional terminology, and have several translated key terms authentically. 6:4 KJV; Phil 1:26 KJV; Phil. In my version of the NRSV (Zondervan (March 1993), 9780310902270 ), the commentary at the beginning of 1 Timothy indicates that this book was written by Paul although some scholars disagree with this conclusion. Hi Marg, have you had any time to see my NT at http://bible.fether.net ? ), … if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. For what it’s worth, I looked up a few of the passages above in the second edition of the NLT and it appears they have made some changes in a positive direction, so it may be worth a second look at some point. And being found in appearance as a man … NIV 2011 For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, and called him her master . … being born in the likeness of men. Heb. ), ~ 1 Timothy 2:11 is unchanged from the previous edition and maintains the too passive sounding, “A woman must quietly receive instruction …” This translation is not as accurate as it could be. The magazine, Christianity Today, in its Tuesday, August 27, 2019 edition, CT Women column, features an editorial by Kate Allnutt noting the first all female audio Bible, called the Courage for Life Bible. The KJV translators knew this and that’s why they never used the words pride or proud in a positive way. My main beef is that the pronouns of God are not capitalized and this feels like a slap in the face to me every time I see it. ], The ESV, however, reveals its bias in Romans 12:6-8. The meaning is that God wants all people, not just men, to be saved, and that Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity, not just men. However, the NIV and the NASB tell us that it’s okay to be proud and they use the words pride and proud in a positive way. The meaning is clear: pride/arrogance/insolence and strife/contention/conflict go hand in hand. There is a “vast bulk of agreement” between the many different English versions of the Bible, according to an expert translator who worked on the controversial 2011 edition of the New International Version. 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